5E Musings: Power = f (Level) ?
A friend once made a comment on the balbal, one of the monsters in the Asuang: Shapechanging Horrors supplement. He said that he found it jarring that a manananggal who has been weakened by the loss of its lower limbs would end up being higher in level than the actual statblock of the manananggal witch found in the same supplement. If something loses power, he argued, then it does not make sense to actually raise its level.
(For those who do not have a copy of the ebook, I ranked the manananggal as a level 11 elite controller, while the balbal was a level 15 brute.)
But a level 15 brute was not, in my opinion, inherently weaker than a level 11 elite controller. At the time, the measure that I primarily used to gauge the power of a 4E monster was through the xp that it gave when it was "defeated." A level 11 elite and a level 15 regular monster both gave 1200 XP, so in my own logic the two statblocks essentially represent the same monster. A manananggal witch, upon losing its lower half, degenerates and goes from cunning manipulator to base demon (hence the shift from controller to brute). The level gap simply means that, combat-wise, the witch interacts better with level 11 PCs while the balbal is something that level 15 PCs are more comfortable fighting against. But there's still a sense of PC growth because a creature that once could take on a party with only a sister-witch now requires 4 such brethren to be an adequate challenge.
Level is not the only parameter for power in D&D. Aside from the monster example above, players have long been familiar with the linear fighters, quadratic wizards problem. But I won't delve into the PC side of things too much; I would instead like to look into monsters and how their level defines them.
Challenge Ratings are not Created Equal
When designing encounters back in D&D 3.5, one of the most important measures to consider is the Challenge Rating. In theory, a creature of challenge rating X will eat up 25% of the a level X party's combat-related resources. In addition, adding class levels to a monster will increase its CR depending on whether the class in question is associated or nonassociated: a 1-to-1 increase is seen with the former and a 2:1 ratio, up to the monster's original hit dice, after which things proceeded as a 1-to-1 again. It was somewhat a complicated system, especially if you're the type of DM who likes to add class levels to important monster NPCs. But it made sense to many DMs, and for the most part the CR system has been used for gauging fights.
Spamming your caster level to cast Blasphemy? Not when I have 50 HD, baby. |
There were a lot of issues with the CR system, however. Even among creatures of the same CR, there were variations in power level that are not immediately apparent. A CR 7 succubus will likely cause more trouble than a CR 8 destrachan. Dragons are generally considered strong for their level, and that's before you optimize feat and spell selection. Orcs might be weak for their CR if you use them to build spellcasting classes, due to the weak spell save DCs from their -2 to intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. And don't get me started on the leShay, a 50 hit die, CR 28 monster from the epic level handbook.
In addition, DMs noticed that the CR X = 25% resource depletion did not apply as well to creatures when you start to get up to high to epic levels. Without detailing the intricacies of fights at high-level play, several threats would expend little of the party's resources while others will deplete everything despite being of the appropriate level.
Because of this, many alternative CR computations were adopted by DM's that liked high-level play. Some basic ones included computing CR as 3/4ths of the monster's ECL, while some like Upper_Krust adopted more complicated systems that were a chore to use but felt more accurate in play. (I used to know his golden rule/ silver rule by heart, but now I can't for the life of me understand the system he laid out.) UK computed that the CR of an ancient wyrm red dragon (CR 26 by the book) was actually 71.973!
Whether or not you like tinkering with CR's as written, it seems that monsters of the same challenge rating will not necessarily be of the same difficulty. Some will be easier, such as the CR 8 spellcasting orc, others will be of normal difficulty, such as the destrachan, while a certain squid headed psionic creature and his instagib "eat-your-brains" attack will likely be hard for a CR 8 monster.
So why are they all level 8, if they provide different challenges to the party? Some would attribute it to bad design and fix the monster CRs. I believe that they are all CR8 becuase they can all reasonably interact with level 8 player characters. Throw even 10 of them at a level 13 party and they won't feel that it's any sort of challenge at all. Throw 1 as a boss fight for level 3 players, on the other hand, and you have a potential TPK.
On Minions and Solos
Lich Vestige: Ancient spellcaster with centuries of lore? Check. Badass crown? Check. Drops in 1 hit? Check. Monster Vault |
4E, of course, takes the varied difficulties of specific monsters sharing a level and integrates it into the game in the form of minions, elites, and solos. That is, 4-6 minions count as 1 standard monster, 1 elite counts as 2 monsters, and 1 solo counts as five monsters. While it is controversial, particularly for the 1-hp minions and the easy-to-lock solos, I believe that this particular implementation of monsters are a step in the right direction. After all, if you're a level 5 barbarian and you fight a bunch of CR 1/2 orcs, don't they go down in 1 hit anyway? The minion system ensures that they go down quickly and make the level 3 barbarian feel like the god of war, while at the same time keeping the orcs relevant as level 3 minions.
If there were flaws with the monster difficulty tiers in 4th edition, it was with the way they were presented. Like in my example with the manananggal witch above turning into a balbal, the thing to remember about 4E statblocks is that they are not the end-be-all of the monster's capabilities. Yes, for the purposes of combat, the lich vestige has only 1 hit point while simultaneously being a level 26 threat. But that doesn't mean that it has 1 hp while it floats around the highly damaging layer of Thanatos. To me, the vestige is a way to show players that where once liches scared them when it had 268 hp at level 14, they can now slay liches left and right as demigods. The two statblocks have roughly the same amount of xp, after all. (And I stick by that logic no matter what the Monster Manual fluff says about lich vestiges.)
But why do we have more than one statblock to represent the same creature? Essentially, the rigidity of 4E numbers mean that meaningful interactions between a party and a creature 4 or more levels away is very difficult. In combat they will either never hit the party (level - 4), or they will never be hit by the party (level + 4). But if the level 6 solo blue dragon is also the level 11 elite dragon, level 16 standard dragon, and level 21 minion dragon, then the same character can be meaningful without making it feel like the player characters are getting more powerful.
The problem with solos, on the other hand, is that representing 5 monsters at the same time is a tall order, even for dragons. Even with attacking twice on standard actions, minor action attacks, and interrupts here and there, the biggest problem is that as one creature, conditions are spammed onto the solo to make it nigh ineffective. Oftentimes, the fix to solos that I have seen is to give them more actions or turns in a round and to give it ways to mitigate or more easily escape harmful status effects. This is a good fix mechanically. But on a personal note, I prefer multiple turns as the purview of multi-headed monsters; also, I think that escaping a status that the player imposed feels like cheating to the player who scored the hit with his daily power.
The very term "solo" puts these monsters in a tight spot. Veteran 4E DMs know that solos work best when they are not alone. That way, other monsters soak up status conditions, and the solo is able to move more. And if the party gangs up on the solo anyway, the minions can hurt them in turn. But then, let's state the obvious: That means that the term solo is not strictly representative of what they are in the game anymore.
Perhaps, instead of a monster that represents 5, we can think of a monster that can interact with a party who shares its level, but is inherently more dangerous than comparable creatures. But how can this be done? Well, dragons are big and hard to kill, and their breath can melt metal. The lich can use power word kill. The medusa can petrify. In a nuthsell, difficult monsters are more lethal. They can have save-or-die effects, or other things that can be regarded as "difficulty enhancers."
D&D Next Proposal
Power =/= f(level). Power == f(level, difficulty)
Monster level is a gauge for interacting with PCs. Ideally, a monster or NPC should have the capability to interact with players regardless of level, but if that cannot be achieved then the parties whose levels are arbitrarily close to the monsters can interact with it.
Monster level is a gauge for interacting with PCs. Ideally, a monster or NPC should have the capability to interact with players regardless of level, but if that cannot be achieved then the parties whose levels are arbitrarily close to the monsters can interact with it.
In addition to their level, monsters have a tag that points out a default difficulty (easy, moderate, difficult).
- Easy monsters are designed to be taken down by the party with ease, although they must remain threats especially when encountered in numbers. Perhaps their damage is low, or they are simply designed to be henchmen. Perhaps alternate modules exist to turn them into the 1hp, constant damage minions of 4E style.
- Moderate monsters are the default type of monster.
- Difficult monsters utilize one or more effects that make them more lethal than your standard monster. Perhaps alternate modules exist to downgrade their powers for those DMs who want to be less lethal.
It's interesting seeing someone start with a somewhat different premise and arrive at more or less same conclusions I have: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/power-vs-levels/
ReplyDelete:)
Also, 3ed CRs were pretty terrible...
Hello, magbonch!
DeleteYeah, I feel like the conclusion is something that 4E DMs in general see, on an intuitive level at least. On the other hand it is not as immediately apparent to GMs outside of the 4E D&D subculture. (The aforementioned friend who commented on the balbal has little experience with 4E, but has the widest GMing experience among various RPG systems among my circle of friends.)
I think you have explained it in your blog better than I have here. I do think that level still has some say in the implied power level of a monster, though - it is not completely disjointed from it IMO.
Thanks for replying! :-)
My view is that the solo's stats and abilities might be mathematically determined, but the way to actually make them "boss" type characters is by giving them ENORMOUS amounts of "plot power". Hard to kill (plot armor/high HP) is one thing, but giving them
ReplyDelete- ways to quickly kill off threats
- abilities that, even if the party neuters the solo himself, allow him to remain a threat
** NOTE: The most common methodology is to give the solo auras, minions, terrains, powers to shrug off effects, immunities, and resistances, but may also come in the form of machinations that live on in his memory that are hellishly difficult to deal with [See: Al Qaeda, even after the death of their leader(s)]
- if the solo is a leader, emphasize the fact that he *is* a leader, by giving him an army to lead against the players.
And as always, it's up to the DM to determine how often (or how rarely) he'd use his tools to his advantage.
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I'm not so much a fan of the "save or die", for the very reason you cited: it's anticlimactic for the player(s) who, by a single die roll, have an all-or-nothing effect dealt to them, full stop. If you were to ask me, I'd rather go for a *minimum* of 2 saves to die, although 3 saves is better (if you count the roll to hit the PCs as a "saving throw" rolled by the attacker instead of the attacked).
There has to be emphasis however that the rules on such events (save or die/petrify/suck/whatever) are explicitly PC-specific at the base level UNLESS THE DM SAYS OTHERWISE. For example, while PCs get two saves before turning to stone when facing a Medusa, their NPC allies have no such luck: they turn to stone instantly. This is to emphasize two things:
1. PCs are the heroes, and although they *can* die, their death has to have meaning and *preferably* it is after a heroic struggle for survival.
2. The story takes precedence over any rule, so to show that the PCs are tougher, stronger, better, or simply luckier than regular folk, they get a chance to succeed where others have failed, as opposed to even the best NPC warrior (who is petrified instantly the moment he lays his eyes on the Medusa).
Although again with #2, this is completely within the purvey of the DM's approval, so if the group has already been BLATANTLY warned that the entire campaign features save-or-die and insta-kill, at least the players shouldn't regret being instantly slain or petrified or what not.
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On a different, yet related matter, I'd probably do a Power Word: Kill in this manner...
Power Word: Kill * Arcane, Implement
Standard Action * Ranged 5
Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma vs. Fortitude
Hit: the target loses two healing surges, and is unconscious (save ends).
First Failed Saving Throw: The target loses all remaining healing surges.
Second Failed Saving Throw: The target dies.
Miss: The target loses one healing surge.
Effect: The target is weakened (save ends).
[ That way the players are granted a chance to save their ally -- instilling a feeling of hope and making it feel threatening as opposed to outright unwinnable or negligible -- but at the same time it shows the fatality that the spell brings to the table. ]
And while I *could* go about and establish it as a Wizard spell, I'd rather not have it a *selectable* Wizard spell, and instead an item-granted spell (Daily Item Power [Tome], Minor Action: You expend a level 29 daily arcane attack power, and gain one use of Power Word: Kill before the end of the encounter. If you do not use the power before the end of the encounter, the power is lost.).
Hey Mr. N,
DeleteA lot of people do seem to really dislike save-or-die (SoD) effects. On the other hand, I also notice that a lot of people want them included in the game. Like many hot-button topics, it seems to split the fans pretty evenly.
For my part, I like how SAVE VERSUS DEATH handled it: Modules under 4thcore instruct the GM to make sure that the players know that such powers exist in the hands of monsters, and at the same time most powers that do inflict SoD's still need a hit, and then require a save. It reminds me of 3.5 spell penetration. :-)
I do dislike SoD's when players/NPCs prepare nothing BUT SoD's. If it should exist, it should not be too abundant.
Which is why I tied it to a suggested "difficulty" module. Some monsters, particularly those who traditionally can inflict SoD's, are flagged as difficult. There is ample warning, and a module that dials the monster down for DMs who want less lethality. :-)
Thanks for replying!
Hmm, interesting :) That's basically how I did it (if you look at the "Power Word: Kill" entry above), making it three rolls to kill the person and not one. If we return to the land of saving-throws-as-defenses, I'd advocate that it be multiple saving throws [ala spell penetration, as you mentioned], but instead of spell resistance being the only buffer between having to save-or-die or not, it'd be effects that -- like how Diseases work in 4E -- progressively degrade for each failed save, until the point of death. So let's say a save vs. petrification would be something like...
Delete1st save vs. petrification: slowed
2nd save vs. petrification: restrained
3rd save vs. petrification: petrified
Instead of 1st save vs. petrification: petrified.
[ I'd probably have it a CON or STR save vs. petrification, if all saving throws are to be ability score based. ]
Yes, there's nothing wrong with your approach. The 3-saves-or-die model of 4E works, and it does provide its own level of intensity and excitement especially when players start failing their saves. :-)
DeleteMy point is that there are people who find the approach lacking. To them, they see Medusa turning monsters to stone instantaneously and (forgive me for the HP example) seeing a skilled wizard like Cedric Diggory die immediately in one Avada Kedavra. I also believe that it's a core part of the DnD experience and it would work well as the default for some (ie, only a few) monsters.
With that being said, the modularity that 5E promises to be, IMO, can provide a scenario where both ideas can be integrated in. That's where the proposal of the "difficulty dial" comes in. Let's take the medusa for example:
* The medusa can petrify immediately, with only one save-or-die to avoid the effect. This is its default configuration. But because it has an ability that can off players in one hit, the monster is deemed as a difficult monster. (An evolution of the solo designation, it can also have other qualities that a solo monster has.)
* A number of players may dislike difficult monsters in their game. There is, then, an option to dial them down to a normal monster. Perhaps hit points go down, multi-attacks are removed, and the petrification is turned into your 3-saves model above.
* Finally, perhaps the PCs are already epic-level, and the DM wants to have 10 medusa minions of Set, the serpent deity. They can then be dialed down to easy, where their petrification is temporary (think of Belmont from Castlevania and how button mashing can end petrification. Ability checks as a move action?) Other minion traits may also be applied - maybe they go down in one hit, or have their bows deal a constant amount of damage for easier management.
Of course, the idea hinges on WotC delivering on its promise to keep the orc "relevant" even as character levels go up or down. But I'm hopeful there. :D